Gurdjieff's students once stated that their old friends found them stupid, and boring, once they became students of Gurdjieff. I think there is truth to that. I find myself stupid and boring, the further I go, and the less obsessed with the world I find myself. Obviously, boring and stupid is a synonym for dissociated from worldliness. Boring implies non-controversial; stupid implies unknowledgeable. As one progresses, one does become dissociated, and less knowledgeable. It is inevitable; the mind unwinds, and all its content and affections, addictions, obsessions unwind with it.
There was a time when I was full of certainty, full of knowledge, and stimulated by both. Today, there is nothing certain about anything, and knowledge, of all kinds, is often relative, and frequently limited and essentially useless to me. I can no longer take a position, because inevitably the opposing side has just as much merit as the original position. Nothing is right, nothing is wrong, because everything has conditions, and conditions change, and depend upon other conditions.
The mind relishes controversy, debate, discussion, contradiction, affirmation, denial, and all the rest of it. But if the mind is discovered to be arbitrary and malleable, if it is found to be not quite as profound as it thought itself to be, if its construct is nothing more than chance encounters with its fabricated world, then what is it if not just a fantasy of concepts, none of which are especially significant, all of which are happenstance? When the mind begins to become transparent because of this discovery, all of its supposed strength and power just kind of evaporates, and one is left with a boring and kind of stupid "mind", one which fuctions just as well, but is not quite so "bright and interesting" because it has emptied itself of so many of its "bright and interesting" concepts. But, if I had to choose, I would not go back. To be driven or controlled by the mind and all its multifarious concepts is a kind of madness, I think. Of course, there are those of us who prefer a kind of madness to peace and harmony, and it is that preference, I believe, that enslaves us.
Becoming Boring
Anna---I identify with your post. I have been in a similar state lately and I have decided that either I'm in the early stages of Alzheimers, or this is just part of the path.
A quotes that fits with your feeling on 'boring and unknowing'
BEING DIFFERENT
How much difference between yes and no?
What difference between good and bad?
What the people fear
must be feared.
O desolation!
Not yet, not yet has it reached its limit!
Everybody's cheerful,
cheerful as if at a party,
or climbing a tower in springtime.
And here I sit unmoved,
clueless, like a child,
a baby too young to smile.
Forlorn, forlorn.
Like a homeless peron.
Most people have plenty.
I'm the one that's poor,
a fool right through.
Ignorant, ignorant.
Most people are so bright.
I'm the one that's dull.
Most people are so keen.
I don't have the answers.
Oh, I'm desolate, at sea,
adrift, without harbor.
Everybody has something to do.
I'm the clumsy one, out of place.
I'm the different one,
for my food
is the milk of the mother.
Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching/ Ursula K Le Guin
A quotes that fits with your feeling on 'boring and unknowing'
BEING DIFFERENT
How much difference between yes and no?
What difference between good and bad?
What the people fear
must be feared.
O desolation!
Not yet, not yet has it reached its limit!
Everybody's cheerful,
cheerful as if at a party,
or climbing a tower in springtime.
And here I sit unmoved,
clueless, like a child,
a baby too young to smile.
Forlorn, forlorn.
Like a homeless peron.
Most people have plenty.
I'm the one that's poor,
a fool right through.
Ignorant, ignorant.
Most people are so bright.
I'm the one that's dull.
Most people are so keen.
I don't have the answers.
Oh, I'm desolate, at sea,
adrift, without harbor.
Everybody has something to do.
I'm the clumsy one, out of place.
I'm the different one,
for my food
is the milk of the mother.
Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching/ Ursula K Le Guin
Oh, my, how gorgeous is that?, jenjulian? Thank you so much for putting this poem up ..... it is so apt, isn't it? It sounds in many ways as well, similar to what Christian mystics experience when they refer to "the dark night of the soul." In particular, I love the last sentence.............sigh...........!
I am certain my state was not early Alzheimers, though I must say, I found the suggestion interesting.
I have always believed that there is probably considerably more to Alzheimer's than simply a pathological state. In many instances, the person who experiences it has already, long ago, checked out. This, to my mind, indicates that possibly there is a kind of reversal going on in the pathology of Alzheimers, and that, because of modern medicine, we may be extending physical life beyond the length of time that our soul's destiny may have agreed to?
There is a wonderful book written by Bernadette Roberts, The Path to No-Self, or the Experience of No Self, which describes her own journey toward awakening in the 1980's. At the time she fell into this kind of neither here nor there state, she thought she was going through menopause. I found that particularly amusing. Because to her mind, her state resembled what often occurs with menopause, it set me to thinking in my own experience of menopause in the early 90's, if perhaps menopause itself isn't actually a spiritual experience, in that the creative imperative, evidenced by estrogen, ceases, and the full potential of women begins to be expressed? In other words, she is no longer driven by the pro-creative imperative which is built into the system - she is free of that, and free to develop in other directions? I also found it very interesting that only up until recently, there was a great effort to prolong the exposure for women to estrogen, in the prescribing of ERT, which prolongation signifies to me all sorts of interesting insights into our cultural heritage and baggage.
Anyway, thanks for the posting of Lao Tzu. I am often struck by the fact that we find so many references to these kinds of states not in western literature, but in that of the east.
I am certain my state was not early Alzheimers, though I must say, I found the suggestion interesting.
I have always believed that there is probably considerably more to Alzheimer's than simply a pathological state. In many instances, the person who experiences it has already, long ago, checked out. This, to my mind, indicates that possibly there is a kind of reversal going on in the pathology of Alzheimers, and that, because of modern medicine, we may be extending physical life beyond the length of time that our soul's destiny may have agreed to?There is a wonderful book written by Bernadette Roberts, The Path to No-Self, or the Experience of No Self, which describes her own journey toward awakening in the 1980's. At the time she fell into this kind of neither here nor there state, she thought she was going through menopause. I found that particularly amusing. Because to her mind, her state resembled what often occurs with menopause, it set me to thinking in my own experience of menopause in the early 90's, if perhaps menopause itself isn't actually a spiritual experience, in that the creative imperative, evidenced by estrogen, ceases, and the full potential of women begins to be expressed? In other words, she is no longer driven by the pro-creative imperative which is built into the system - she is free of that, and free to develop in other directions? I also found it very interesting that only up until recently, there was a great effort to prolong the exposure for women to estrogen, in the prescribing of ERT, which prolongation signifies to me all sorts of interesting insights into our cultural heritage and baggage.
Anyway, thanks for the posting of Lao Tzu. I am often struck by the fact that we find so many references to these kinds of states not in western literature, but in that of the east.
I found your explanation of alzheimers very interesting. Since I work in the health care field, this is something that has always bothered me, why people end up without any ability to think or remember. I think the idea of checking out makes a lot of sense and I know a family member that fits this description quite well. I also think the idea of the body out living the soul's time here makes sense too. Much to think about on this one.
I also like the menopause ideas from Bernadette Roberts. I am at this time in my life and everyone else can call it menopause. I call it a spiritual experience. I'm currently reading a book called Crossing to Avalon by Jean Shenoda Bolen, MD and it speaks of the different stages in a woman's life. She states that each one is meant to be a spiritual transition, but that in our society, we have losted the spiritual side and have reduced such things as pregnancy and menopause to biological events.
Menopause is the time for inward turning (which, by the way, your post on this is fabulous...such Truth) and creating our wisdom.
I do like the Tao Te Ching too. When I'm thinking too hard, it is the perfect meditation book. Makes everything simple again.
I also like the menopause ideas from Bernadette Roberts. I am at this time in my life and everyone else can call it menopause. I call it a spiritual experience. I'm currently reading a book called Crossing to Avalon by Jean Shenoda Bolen, MD and it speaks of the different stages in a woman's life. She states that each one is meant to be a spiritual transition, but that in our society, we have losted the spiritual side and have reduced such things as pregnancy and menopause to biological events.
Menopause is the time for inward turning (which, by the way, your post on this is fabulous...such Truth) and creating our wisdom.
I do like the Tao Te Ching too. When I'm thinking too hard, it is the perfect meditation book. Makes everything simple again.
Re stages of life:
I remember years ago when Bolen first arrived on the scene. I think she and her husband at the time were offering seminars, if memory serves me. That must have been in the 70’s? maybe?
Many great teachers, both west and east (Jung was one of the western ones that pop to mind), both ancient, and modern, divide life into separate stages and each stage is considered to be appropriate to certain focused activity, and if the individual recognizes and flows with that, her life will move smoothly, productively, and happily. It is only in resistance to the transition into the next stage that the struggle and misery appears. I have certainly found that to be the case in my own life. I remember one enormous transitional phase in my life when I resisted and struggled so hard against what it was trying to bring me to that I actually got physically ill, and found myself essentially immobilized, which was necessary if I was to step into the next phase. In retrospect, almost all the unhappiness and fear and struggle that occurred at that time was self-imposed (hmmmmm……….“you don’t say?!”)
And only when I finally surrendered to the situation, indeed, gave up and actually, completely admitted defeat and willingness to die if necessary to get on with my process, did healing occur and my life begin to re-arrange itself. I suppose this was a kind of turning about of the will, from willfulness into willed focus on something other than myself and my physical situation – in my case, toward God, but it could have been simply toward something greater than myself. Focusing only on the separative, limited self can be a real self-imposed kind of hell. (Here’s another theory: where is hell, truly? – I believe we create it, literally, here and now, as we can also create heaven, here and now. Who was it that said “My father’s heaven is within, and closer than your heart?” – forgive the paraphrase. When you start to investigate this theory, it is quite astonishing how much one can find to support it.)
Certainly I have personally tested and experienced the progress of stages, and found that the old masters’ theories and teachings are right on. Of course, in order to adapt and move into these stages, one has to be willing to do so, and unfortunately, in this western world, probably even the eastern now, there are few that are willing, much less enthusiastic about doing so. It is rather tragic, I think, because this is built into the system, and adaptation to it only brings peace, contentment, and liberation, either limited, or in full expression, depending upon the individual’s aspiration. Of course, to do it, one has to go against the tide and much of one’s culture, in many, many respects, and that is never easy.
I remember years ago when Bolen first arrived on the scene. I think she and her husband at the time were offering seminars, if memory serves me. That must have been in the 70’s? maybe?
Many great teachers, both west and east (Jung was one of the western ones that pop to mind), both ancient, and modern, divide life into separate stages and each stage is considered to be appropriate to certain focused activity, and if the individual recognizes and flows with that, her life will move smoothly, productively, and happily. It is only in resistance to the transition into the next stage that the struggle and misery appears. I have certainly found that to be the case in my own life. I remember one enormous transitional phase in my life when I resisted and struggled so hard against what it was trying to bring me to that I actually got physically ill, and found myself essentially immobilized, which was necessary if I was to step into the next phase. In retrospect, almost all the unhappiness and fear and struggle that occurred at that time was self-imposed (hmmmmm……….“you don’t say?!”)
And only when I finally surrendered to the situation, indeed, gave up and actually, completely admitted defeat and willingness to die if necessary to get on with my process, did healing occur and my life begin to re-arrange itself. I suppose this was a kind of turning about of the will, from willfulness into willed focus on something other than myself and my physical situation – in my case, toward God, but it could have been simply toward something greater than myself. Focusing only on the separative, limited self can be a real self-imposed kind of hell. (Here’s another theory: where is hell, truly? – I believe we create it, literally, here and now, as we can also create heaven, here and now. Who was it that said “My father’s heaven is within, and closer than your heart?” – forgive the paraphrase. When you start to investigate this theory, it is quite astonishing how much one can find to support it.)
Certainly I have personally tested and experienced the progress of stages, and found that the old masters’ theories and teachings are right on. Of course, in order to adapt and move into these stages, one has to be willing to do so, and unfortunately, in this western world, probably even the eastern now, there are few that are willing, much less enthusiastic about doing so. It is rather tragic, I think, because this is built into the system, and adaptation to it only brings peace, contentment, and liberation, either limited, or in full expression, depending upon the individual’s aspiration. Of course, to do it, one has to go against the tide and much of one’s culture, in many, many respects, and that is never easy.
Re your comment about Alzheimers
Your comment about Alzheimers got me to thinking:
I wonder how many of these individuals who are incarcerated, are simply physical shells of liberated beings who have moved on? There was a classic case of this by a master teacher in our modern day, some man named something Rose, who, shortly after beginning to teach, developed Alzheimers, and was put into a home. If one considers the culture he lived and taught in, as opposed to say, the East Indian culture, which tolerates and reveres what they call advahootas, who are, from all outward appearances, crazy people (indeed, advahoota means crazy teaching or teacher), one can see how it was probably inevitable that he ended up incarcerated. We have no paradigm for liberated beings, indeed, our culture is carefully arranged to denigrate it, because it does not serve the social system. The Catholic church goes so far as to put their intoxicated mystics away so that the public is not exposed to them. Surely, we cannot have a bunch of nutty folks running free, much less honor them, what would that do to the system and its carefully arranged productivity and hierarchy?
It is of more than passing interest that frequently Alzheimers develops after prolonged surgery. I used to think that this was because of damage to the brain by the exposure to prolonged surgery, the drugs used to put the patient out, etc. But I wonder if it is not instead that the patient, under anesthetic, gets out of body, and doesn’t want to come back? I distinctly recall when I was in my 20’s having my wisdom teeth pulled, and in those days, they did it frequently under general anesthetic, which in my case, they did. As I came out from under the anesthetic I was weeping hysterically and totally bereft, truly heartbroken, calling out to someone, “don’t leave me here”. I still feel the tear in the heart that I felt there when remembering it. The doctors explanation was that “this happens frequently to his patients.”!!! And maybe as we get older, and most Alzheimers cases are in the elderly, our grip on the world is less, we are wiser, even if unconsciously, about the benefits and lack thereof, of living in this world, so that upon return, we are not as enthusiastic about returning, and staying, as say, perhaps a 20 year old?
I must say that if this theory has even an iota of truth to it, then those partners and families who manage the Alzheimers patient, would have great consolation, instead of the fear and agony that they now feel over the loss of a loved one. Even the term “loss to Alzheimers” can thus be interpreted in a benign, even joyful, way, as opposed to the horror that it now conjures up. Just a theory…………………….
I wonder how many of these individuals who are incarcerated, are simply physical shells of liberated beings who have moved on? There was a classic case of this by a master teacher in our modern day, some man named something Rose, who, shortly after beginning to teach, developed Alzheimers, and was put into a home. If one considers the culture he lived and taught in, as opposed to say, the East Indian culture, which tolerates and reveres what they call advahootas, who are, from all outward appearances, crazy people (indeed, advahoota means crazy teaching or teacher), one can see how it was probably inevitable that he ended up incarcerated. We have no paradigm for liberated beings, indeed, our culture is carefully arranged to denigrate it, because it does not serve the social system. The Catholic church goes so far as to put their intoxicated mystics away so that the public is not exposed to them. Surely, we cannot have a bunch of nutty folks running free, much less honor them, what would that do to the system and its carefully arranged productivity and hierarchy?
It is of more than passing interest that frequently Alzheimers develops after prolonged surgery. I used to think that this was because of damage to the brain by the exposure to prolonged surgery, the drugs used to put the patient out, etc. But I wonder if it is not instead that the patient, under anesthetic, gets out of body, and doesn’t want to come back? I distinctly recall when I was in my 20’s having my wisdom teeth pulled, and in those days, they did it frequently under general anesthetic, which in my case, they did. As I came out from under the anesthetic I was weeping hysterically and totally bereft, truly heartbroken, calling out to someone, “don’t leave me here”. I still feel the tear in the heart that I felt there when remembering it. The doctors explanation was that “this happens frequently to his patients.”!!! And maybe as we get older, and most Alzheimers cases are in the elderly, our grip on the world is less, we are wiser, even if unconsciously, about the benefits and lack thereof, of living in this world, so that upon return, we are not as enthusiastic about returning, and staying, as say, perhaps a 20 year old?
I must say that if this theory has even an iota of truth to it, then those partners and families who manage the Alzheimers patient, would have great consolation, instead of the fear and agony that they now feel over the loss of a loved one. Even the term “loss to Alzheimers” can thus be interpreted in a benign, even joyful, way, as opposed to the horror that it now conjures up. Just a theory…………………….