Looking past the Person

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anna
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Looking past the Person

Postby anna » July 24th, 2005, 1:51 am

Just a thought:

If the point of view of god realization, or spirit, or union, or God, or non-duality, is to see everything as a whole, then the key to dealing with individual folks, many of whom are difficult, or even somewhat mad, would be to look past the person, and speak only to the being, the consciousness. By consciousness, I mean the stream of awareness that projects through the individual and often appears in its strange and often peculiar disguise as a neurotic, fearful, confrontational, or difficult, personality. This seems to me to be the only method whereby love can truly manifest, because if you don't look past the person, you end up mired within that person's world of concepts. In particular, if you are sensitive, or open and receptive to that person, unbuffered, if you will, you are bound to resonate with that person and probably dance a somewhat similar dance to what he is dancing. This may be entertaining, and even amusing, but sometimes it can be depressing and frustrating.

Of course, in order to do this, we need focus and a certain control over the mind, or in the heat of relationship, we will forget to see past the person, and be sucked once again into differentiation and me and you. This proposal is possible, I have done it myself, but it is infrequent, and difficult to maintain initially. We are so habituated to duality and all its seductions that we fall into it automatically and with pleasure.

UG would probably tell me I am full of nonsense - but of course he spent a good part of his life training the mind and focusing it, in order to get to where he could make the statement that it is all a bunch of nonsense, so who is he to talk! :uhh:

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Postby mjoel53 » July 24th, 2005, 6:39 pm

Ha ha! - got a good chuckle out of your stance towards UG.

But I'll too say that proposition is full of nonsense (I'm willing to play along with our imaginary conversation with UG) - yet I have not spent a great amount of my life training my mind. And focus! - forget about it.

Is there any motiviation to look past the person who is not presenting difficultness - can love then manifest without my doing tricks of conscious manipulation of perception?

I can accurately state that I spend most all time in duality, in separation, in me and you, etc. As a matter of fact, I actually can be one who "appears in its strange and often peculiar disguise as a neurotic, fearful, confrontational, or difficult, personality." Now - this does not usually (only occasionally) appear during interactions with others ... but get me by myself ... watch out / sigh (choose one).

Point being ... there is no perception I can have or love I can eminate (towards others, myself, or the sky) that makes one bit of difference as to the truth of what I am. And perhaps more importantly, the direct knowing of that.

I have looked for a key to dealing with individual folks, for a key to dealing with myself. Talk about a life-exhaustion. However, seeing directly that both (or either) are "full of nonsense" whether being difficult or groovy - there is no key needed. Both are the same thing - no thing at all.

Seeing past the person can remove me from full engagement - denying full expression of "my" separate infinite boundless self. Sometimes the person I'm dealing with needs be told they are behaving like an idiot - and I need to get stupid at them in order to do it. Sometimes I need told I'm behaving like an idiot. Now, someone coming from a point of view of god realization is not going to do any good, because they are going to be totally accepting. Maybe. (I don't know, really.) Maybe a person coming from a point of view of god realization is going to offer the proper slap across the face. But can they do that without they themselves becoming sufficiently riled up within the illusion of separation? Maybe - I don't know.

Point being ... there is no point of view to come from ... that matters ... that I can control or choose or manifest. At all. It can only manifest in duality even though it can only come from wholeness. And I am void of power in that area. Anyhow.

Yet ... yet ... why have I spent the past thirty years wanting only one thing ... to wake up wake up wake up !!! No point, no point at all. It just feels good to see the forest AND the trees. There is no fear that can be escaped.

And that, my dear, is "just a thought." :lol:

Living is entertaining, amusing, depressing, frustrating. I believe the problem in being a seeker is attempting to ride the teeter totter of life and always be on the upswing. Just where did we get this idea that truth would be eternal sunshine of the spotless mind? Do I digress? ... Am I getting up on a soapbox? ... Oh ... well ...
--Michael

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iamDiane
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Postby iamDiane » July 26th, 2005, 1:15 pm

Just some other pondering thoughts!
Very interesting! Anna & Michael!
One would wonder why we keep punishing oneself, continually striving to be-come, or to realize or attain some specific point? (Dam!) Will we ever learn!
Personally, I feel or believe that > God, Buddha, Creator, Source, Spirit, Infinite Being, Consciousness does not make junk or mistakes! Only an infinite & eternal opportunity which contains the potential for All to experience All that is!
Perfectly Imperfect one could say, just as it is! One of many, Many of One (reconnections)

No special passes! Nor Gift vouchers or knowing some-One special, who is in the know that may lighten the perceived load for us or appears to have it all under control & acquired a master’s degree! All are masters by degree! Maybe, we just haven’t realized it yet? All is interconnected! All co-exist.

Emm, is it the chicken or the egg that came first? Well that just maybe, is another story!

What I feel, we do as humans is judge all experiences / things based on a hierarchy of what’s good or bad, spiritual or ignorant, sad or happy, ignorant or enlightened (funny that) Hence, continually denying the opposite of that which we prefer not to experience, or be seen to experience, which is based on our internal dialogue or mental frame of reference, that clearly has a list of should & should nots > that are also influenced through external input of others & our experiences that lead us to deem most of our experiences as either acceptable or unacceptable!

Until we recognise our own inner dialogue for what it is, then how can we experience anything but the pendulum swinging back & forth! (Another polarity judgment) Obviously we make choices every eternal infinitely expanding moment!
However, judging them does not help us, realizing why we make them does!
Maybe the difference here is whether the choices are founded on a firm foundation or on shifting sands! Either aware or unaware of where the motivation is or was elicited from elicits the freedom to Be all that one is! In other words how well one knows one-self & how much of that knowing has be-come wisdom through experience!
God knows, one repeats many experiences many times! I DO! (Slow learner or awakener)

Maybe, if we All accepted personal responsibility for our behaviour & chose to take Should & Judgment out of our life & any experience we encounter (create) and express all that we are, warts & all. we would begin to authentically self-realize based on the foundation of accepting that “ALL” has the purposeful potential to experience all that is, without judgement!

Can one begin to perceive or know polarity without convergence? With out contemplating or acknowledging they may well co-exist as “One” union in balance, with, authentic self “Awareness” “Being “ the difference!

With neither thought of as better or worse than the other? Just as a car battery requires both positive & negative charge! Or the many spectrums of warm-cold or black-white, peace-war, rain-sunshine, wet-dry, happy-sad, frustration-contentment or life-death! Instead of All is! Like it or lump it!

:idea: Maybe accepting how one is feeling & expressing it! If one does not like what one is experiencing or creating for one-self & maybe it is as simple as, changing the way one looks at things and the things one looks at change! (In the eye of the beholder) or one continues to experience the consequences we create for ourselves & maybe only then shall we be-come wise rather than just having knowledge or knowing that is eternally elicited through awakening /evolution! Denying all or any of the potential & infinite aspects of one-self would only serve to further create a perception of separateness! Or better or worse.
Who said it was easy & who said it was hard? As one without the other, we can really know neither! Or did it all begin with?

The journey of the Pseudo Adult, what a great adventure & blessing in disguise it can be! A journey that All that is, purposefully shares in & ultimately leads one toward acknowledging & owning All that one is! Including perceptions, warts & all!
Hence getting real & awakening to ones’ authentic nature!

I am enoying the ride, bumps & all! :)
The Greatest Gift One has the innate ability to Discover For Oneself~ Is to Know Who One IS!

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Postby anna » July 26th, 2005, 11:02 pm

mjoel53 wrote:Ha ha! - got a good chuckle out of your stance towards UG.

Is there any motiviation to look past the person who is not presenting difficultness - can love then manifest without my doing tricks of conscious manipulation of perception?



Michael:

Very good point - the end to the discussion as well! :lol: You have presented the crux of the problem - that is "preference!"

In the effort to find comfort, we "prefer" something to something else, and then the dance unwinds.

I have found myself to be its happiest when I simply sit and drink tea, and watch the birds fly, the people walk, listen to sages and idiots with equal enjoyment. But I STILL prefer the fun folks over the grumpy ones. Perhaps I am just getting old, but I really don't enjoy being in the company of grouches. :P And of course, that tells the whole story about MY problem, I still have preferences. :?

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Postby anna » July 26th, 2005, 11:15 pm

mjoel53 wrote:Seeing past the person can remove me from full engagement - denying full expression of "my" separate infinite boundless self.


Well, yes, good point. But what makes full engagement any more useful than non-engagement? They are both being my dual self, doing my dual self-dance, based on whatever conditioning my dual self has accumulated all these years, so nothing is better than the other, no? If we extend the argument to its end, neither is better nor worse, only different. And of course, finally, if embraced, we respond without preference and only according to the event that generates the response. If uncontrolled, then it is spontaneous and appropriate to the moment.

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Postby anna » July 26th, 2005, 11:22 pm

mjoel53 wrote:Living is entertaining, amusing, depressing, frustrating. I believe the problem in being a seeker is attempting to ride the teeter totter of life and always be on the upswing. Just where did we get this idea that truth would be eternal sunshine of the spotless mind? Do I digress? ... Am I getting up on a soapbox? ... Oh ... well ...


With this statement I cannot find any discussion, because I might have said it myself. You realize of course, that the "motivation" toward seeking is exactly that belief, or idea, of "eternal sunshine of the spotless mind", the draw which gets us walking out of where we are and asking questions and "seeking". As they say - "carrying water, chopping wood", is exactly the same thing when you are ignorant as when you are enlightened. Of course, if you truly dwell on that, you will realize that you have probably wasted most of your life looking for the answer that was never out there.
Last edited by anna on July 27th, 2005, 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mjoel53
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Postby mjoel53 » July 27th, 2005, 12:13 am

Actually, I had been mulling this stuff over, and what I said about conscious tricks of perception manipulation, and about seeing past the person removing me from full engagement ... is bunk. :shock:

And Anna's replies kinda solidified this wave of realization.

In all actuality, the deeper one goes, or gets, so to speak, into really knowing what one is ... the less one has a need, or impetus, to behave one way or the other (i.e., properly). It is when we are mired in who we believe ourselves to be (or who we think we are) that we have a desire to behave one way or the other. So it goes for me, anyhow.

So authentic expressions of "love" or seeing wholeness, are not ways of living that one can force, but can flow forth effortlessly. Living responsively. I imagine that just about anyone on the receiving end of forced kindness can smell a fakir.

According to the way the Enneagram is taught by Eli Jaxon Bear, equanimity is the holy path of the four fixation. Behaving with equanimity via forced effort is not behaving with equanimity at all. It simply cannot be practiced, but only come alive naturally. So to speak.

Now ... I wonder if UG would tell me I'm full of nonesense? So be it - one way or ta' other.
--Michael

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Postby anna » July 27th, 2005, 1:04 am

Ah,ha! I think you said it nicely with your quote from the Bear! :wink:

So, how does one do this equanimity without forcing it? How does one come to equanimity without working at it? How does equanimity OCCUR? What allows it to occur? What doesn't allow it to occur. Is there anything anyone can do to permit it, to help it, to obstruct it, to BE it? Is one just lucky if one stumbles across it or is born with it? If directed action of any kind is forcing it, then it is essentially the luck of the draw, no? Or perhaps, if I may be so bold, it is a "graceful" occurrence?

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Postby anna » July 27th, 2005, 1:12 am

Seems to me that ultimately, the equanimity "comes" of its own accord, when "I" get out of the way. In other words, it is the presence of me and my stuff, my expectations, my preferences, my brain full of its conditions, that obstructs the occurrence of equanimity. Indeed, the natural state might be synonymous with equanimity. How like a baby can I be? How timelessly can my mind function? Can you remember how difficult it was as a child to conceive, or even understand the concept, of time? It took me months to understand a clock!

There is no practice for this, obviously, because the practice will be preventing the occurrence, by virtue of its effort and goal, my "preference".

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Postby anna » July 27th, 2005, 1:20 am

And U.G. would most likely concur, only he might suggest that the way out is to truly understand and realize that there is NO way out. I mean REALLY understand that - to the depth of our bones, till we cease asking how, because we realize by the asking we are continuing the debate, ad infinitum, or, by his spin, probably ad nauseum :unsure:

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Enlightenment?

Postby iamDiane » July 27th, 2005, 12:30 pm

I thought I would share this piece that was forwarded tp me :idea:


ZEN KOAN

One day the Master announced that a young monk had reached an
advanced state of enlightment. The news caused some stir. Some of the
monks went to see the young monk. "We heard you are enlightened. Is
that true?" they asked.

"It is," he replied. "And how do you feel?" "As miserable as ever," said the monk.


People's reactions to this story:

"The master was either lying or decieved, and the student was at the
least lying to himself. As a wise man once said, 'Enlightened people
take things lightly.'"

"To be enlightened doesn't mean to be lucky simultaneously. We all
know why."

"Once achieving enlightenment the monk could see the state of the
world and life with clarity. What he sees is not good. It is ironic
that this wonderful achievement only brings him misery through the
enlightened truth he now sees."

"It doesn't mat ter if you're enlightened or not, you still have the
same feelings as before. Only now things are much clearer."

"Reality is reality whether you're enlightened or not."

"Knowledge is infinite. The more you learn, the more you will realise
that you know nothing."

"Enlightenment changes nothing and everything. Nothing is solved!
Enlightenment is not a goal but a state of being that has to be
rediscovered on a continual basis."

"o.k. smile."

"The reason I believe this being to say "miserable as ever" is
because now the others will be expecting him to be a certain being
and act in certain ways. One cannot be free if there are always
expectations of him."

"the more you know, the less you know."

"After "enlightenment" the young monk finally understands the world,
how it works, and all of its component parts. Now this feat is a
large one, one that many do not achieve. The reason the monk is now
more m iserable is because he feels the situation that he now
is "enlightened" upon is a helpless one. Unfortunately the monk is
pessimistic, and cannot forsee a solution for all of the problems
that he has just begun to understand. Maybe the monk is not truly
enlightened."

"the journey is more important than the destination."

"Enlightenment is a state of consciousness beyond emotions, positive
or negative. An enlightened person would be totally accepting of his
state of mind at each moment, however miserable that might be.
Ultimately however true enlightened would in time lead to a wholly
positive emotional state which would reflect and express the bliss of
transcendence."

"If enlightenment is the state of seeing things as they truly are,
then it isn't necessarily going to make you happy...."

"We have no valid way of predicting how we shall feel once
enlightenment is attained - although we all have presumptions and
curiosity. The reality may (probably will?) be wonderful yet
different from our assumptions."

"When a person is enlightened, they discover that they still know so
much less, than ever they did."

"For monks to became enlightened doesn't require to change feelings."

"I think that the young monk told his peers that he was as miserable
as ever so that they would not envy him or his enlightenment. If they
were to envy him then it would hinder their own development because
in order to reach this higher consciousness one is supposed to have
let go of any desires. To want this enlightenment so much would just
add on another 'want'".

"Many people believe that with enlightenment comes peace, power and a
sense of knowing, but with each stage of enlightenment we must still
chop wood and carry water."

"I used to be different, now I'm the same..."
The Greatest Gift One has the innate ability to Discover For Oneself~ Is to Know Who One IS!

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anna
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Postby anna » July 27th, 2005, 2:03 pm

Diane:

Super, super, super entry. Just terrific, says it all, doesn't it?! :mrgreen:

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iamDiane
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Postby iamDiane » July 28th, 2005, 10:39 am

Yes, Anna, I felt it was quiet appropriate for sharing :D
Have a great weekend "Being" :arrow: all that one is !
A beautiful radiant lighthouse!
The Greatest Gift One has the innate ability to Discover For Oneself~ Is to Know Who One IS!

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Postby miko » August 2nd, 2005, 4:38 am

I stopped reading at the first "folks"I can deal with many manifestations of ego in myself and others but tha misuse of this word ,made popular by Pres. Bush, sets my teeth on edge.I will,and have, meditated and prayed over this .My mind just is turned off and I stop listenning or reading as the case may be. Forgive me.
peace
miko

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Bhakti
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Postby Bhakti » August 2nd, 2005, 1:30 pm

In the course of this forum on Looking Past the Person, Michael asked at one point “Am I getting up on a soapbox?” I don’t know whether he is or not, and it doesn’t matter one way or the other. Sometimes I find our discussions philosophically and theologically heady and not practical. Waxing philosophy and theology is fine, but I wonder how we live these words and thoughts on a daily basis.

I’m a caregiver and twice a week I work with a beautiful woman with dementia and an enlightening laugh at times. Here laughter stops my mind and makes me remember who I Am, if only for a brief moment.

I find that I have to open my heart to listen to Eva and not my head. Philosophy has nothing to do with hearing a jumbled mind that can make sense or nonsense. Eva has helped me realize that all mind is jumbled and that we all are constantly working out how to live and die in body and spirit.

She is struggling to let go of her body, and I experience the pain with her. She’ll talk about being useless and having nothing to live for because she’s basically bed ridden and has no interest in anything. The one thing that can make her day (when her mind isn’t preoccupied or fixated on something painful from her past life) is sitting outside in her wheelchair, looking and listening to the flowers, trees, and birds in rain or shine. As with Anna, Eva sits with a cup of tea and seems to be peace beyond words or dementia. And I be peace with her.

One day when I first started working with her, Eva told me that she wanted nothing more done for her. She wanted to be left alone—to die in bed without anyone changing her diapers, getting her out of bed, or offering her anything to eat. To me, Eva means that she wants peace from her jumbled and overworked mind and worn out body.

Each day she wants peace and relief from this body-mind, and one day she asked me if I knew of a way for her to die. I said something to this effect: “I think you’ll be most uncomfortable if your daughter and caregivers didn’t change your diapers and keep you warm or cool as the case might be. But if you want to let go of the worn out body-mind and let it die, you can stop eating and won’t feel pain or discomfort.” Eva’s daughter, who is also a caregiver, told Eva the same thing.

I didn’t stop to consider whether I was speaking from the head, heart, ego, or whatever. The words came spontaneously and I don’t care from where they came. But I wish for Eva and for All, a peace that surpasses understanding, and we glimpse that through each other in pain, sunshine, rain, and wet diapers


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